JMBarrie
JMBarrie => JMBarrie => Topic started by: zigfried on February 05, 2005, 03:02:07 AM
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On two seperate occasion, Geraldo Rivera has stated on FOX NEWS CHANNEL that James Barrie had the SAME allegations made against him as Michael Jackson is now facing. He says this in defense of Jackson and refers to the movie FINDING NEVERLAND as his proof.
I have seen the movie FINDING NEVERLAND, and nowhere in that film do the boys accuse him of sexual abuse as is the case with Jackson.
I havea read biographies of Barrie, and nowhere is ther any accusation from a child that Barrie sexually abused them
I have emailed Geraldo twice to criticize his comments, made first on his show GERALDO RIVERA AT LARGE and repeated on FOX AND FRIENDS.
Stand up for JM Barries name! Email Geralso and tell him that he MUST retract these HIDEOUS allegations he is making against our beloved JMB!
Email him at: atlarge@foxnews.com
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I have written to Geraldo Rivera as follows:
Dear Mr Rivera,
I understand that in a recent programme on Fox TV, you said in effect that J M Barrie was accused of "exactly the same thing as Michael Jackson". As Barrie's only living biographer ("J M Barrie & the Lost Boys", published by Yale University Press) I feel it my duty to point out that this is wholly untrue. The New York Post made the same scurrilous - and totally unfounded - accusation before Christmas. I offered $10,000 payable to the Great Ormond Street Children's Hospital if they - or anyone else - could produce a shred of evidence to substantiate the claim that Barrie was a paedophile, or that he in any way behaved in a sexually "inappropriate" manner with anyone. As his adopted son Nico Llewelyn Davies succinctly put it, "I doubt that Uncle Jim ever experienced a stirring in the undergrowth for anyone - man, woman, child, or beast!" Thus far the Post has retained a cowardly silence.
I also suggested that in the absence of such proof, the Post should donate a similar amount to the Hospital, to compensate for the damage they have done to the memory of the hospital's greatest benefactor - J M Barrie. No donation has thus far been received from the Post.
If it is true that you made the same allegation on Fox TV, I offer you the same challenge: prove your statement, and I will pay $10,000 to the hospital, failing which I would ask that you publicly withdraw your allegation; better still, make a similar donation to the hospital for the damage you have done. None of the foregoing is to be taken as a judgement on Michael Jackson, but he at least is able to defend himself in court. J M Barrie is not.
Sincerely,
Andrew Birkin
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Perhaps one reason that Geraldo made such a ridiculous comparison between Jackson and Barrie is because Jackson claimed to be a fan of Barrie in a recent interview. This is an excerpt from their interview, but take it with more than one grain of salt. Personally, I doubt that Jackson knows anything about Barrie besides that he wrote Peter Pan (and he probably only knows that because he's a fan of the Disney movie).
Geraldo: Did you ever see the movie Finding Neverland or read about J.M. Barrie, the man who wrote Peter Pan?
Michael: I know a lot about Mr. Barrie. I shouldn't say a lot, but I've always appreciated Mr. Barrie's work, and I've been a fan of Mr. Barrie for many, many, many years.
Geraldo: You know, he had a rocky road, similar to you. I don't want to get too far into it. Tell us what led to the creation of Neverland. I mean, specifically the place - There are two Neverlands - There's three. There's Peter Pan's Neverland, there's the Neverland in Michael Jackson's mind and then there's the physical place you created up there where I visited you when you brought up all the inner-city children. Why did you create that place?
Michael: I created Neverland as a home for myself and my children and it was created simply, it was almost like it was done subconsciously, like I said earlier, where can I go? I mean, it's hard. I've tried to go out as myself and I've had policemen tell me, "Put on a disguise! And give me an autograph for my wife!" They tell me, "Why are you out here like this with no security?" And there's fans everywhere so I can't do it...
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How did this pan out?
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members, very cowardly of any person to accuse mr. barrie without facts-ticking[ralph]
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Anyone interested in kids is a pedophile now it's very irritating. Me and my boyfriend LOVE to play with kids and consider ourselves as such. So we know how irritating it is for people to ask "why don't you hang around people your own age if it's harmless?" Because people our age don't play the sort of things we like!!! grrr!!
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Anyone interested in kids is a pedophile now it's very irritating. Me and my boyfriend LOVE to play with kids and consider ourselves as such. So we know how irritating it is for people to ask "why don't you hang around people your own age if it's harmless?" Because people our age don't play the sort of things we like!!! grrr!!
What bothers me the most about such accusations is that, especially in the case of famous people, they never go away. Even long after they've been proven false, they stay with the person. People shouldn't have to keep saying, "No, that's not true"--they should be able to give it all the attention it deserves (none) and move on.
With any luck, the whole "pedophile" scare will go away before it gets so over the top that people are suspected of perversions if they so much as want to become parents....
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I have a great video from my kindergarten graduation back in '89....my Principle gave this message about how he felt as teachers if a young student is crying they should be able to wrap their arms around them and hug them and say how everything will be okay. But that today's world is so messed up that one...especially a man...cannot do this without someone looking at them like something else is going on there...and he felt it was disgusting. I mean no doubt that this stuff happens and to an extent we should be careful..for sure...but we've become such a paranoid society that the kids in the end may end up suffering for it.
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How did this pan out?
Good one. ;)
In the only such scene in Finding Neverland, a man approached Barrie saying there had been talk about why he sought such closeness with boys unrelated to him. Barrie was shocked at the implication and defended the innocence of the boys. If you read Nico's letters on this site, it seems such ideas didn't arise till about twenty years later during the 1920s sexual revolution, and that Barrie was a complete innocent who wouldn't have understood oblique references to child molesting and would have been shocked to the core given an explanation. This has DEFINITELY been added to the story, and never happened, with Lewis Carroll either. If it had happened, just because it was done by a creative genius who has suffered personal tragedies doesn't make it right. (Look at Roman Polanski, who admits what he did and doesn't dare set foot on U. S. soil because of it.) Too bad some people believe and repeat these stories, and you can't disprove them unless people who know tell the truth!
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This has DEFINITELY been added to the story, and never happened,
I think that dialogue between Barrie and his friend about molestation was added to Finding Neverland not because the makers thought it happened, but for the modern audience's sake. It's bound to cross their minds - indeed whenever I discuss the story of Barrie, someone always asks this. The subject is briefly in The Lost Boys as well (with Arthur and Sylvia) and we know Andrew Birkin is not questioning it! Both films do not dwell on it, but bring it up as someone else saying it, and dimiss it as outrageous. It's not discussed or even thought of again by either films, and Barrie's relationship with the boys is looked down upon for other reasons, much more emotional than dangerous.
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People don't like people who are big kids....I've learned this the hard way..I don't ignore my responsibilities in life...I don't crawl on the floor or anything ridiculous...I still like to get toys at christmas....my family thought I was weird that my boyfriend gave me a Tinkerbell doll last Christmas..I still color in coloring books...I will go into toys R us with my boyfriend and play with stuff....and we want so much to be able to go outside and play with ..well..kids....because we feel we're big kids...and no one else our age wants to play old school. We're not pedophiles either but even if people aren't talking about sexuality for some reason it's still looked at as "wrong". My grandma asked my mom at christmas after she saw the Tink doll "Is something wrong with Krista?"...my grandmother sees me all the time it's not like we're a distant family and I use to live with her till i was 18. I always said I never wanted to grow up but I guess they didn't take that too seriously until they saw that I was no longer hiding anything or holding back...my boyfriend gave me the courage to be who i am and not be scared...because he's the same way. Years ago he was playing with these kids and the parents asked his parents why someone his age would want to hang out with children....his parents explained...and suprisingly there was never any trouble after that and they were all friends....so that's good but the majority of society is not that forgiving and we know it from our experiences. Anything that deviates from "normal" adult behavior and you are a weirdo and an outcast..let alone when people try to sexualize it all it's ridiculous. I know there IS reason to worry about that stuff out there but people have GOT to learn that there is a different group of people out there who love children in a completely different way...because they are children inside. It's literally depressing to go outside and see kids playing and know that you put your neck on the line if you ask to join in and play.
(Though of course you don't see it a whole lot today cause everyone is inside on computers)
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There is something that modern day calls, Man Boy Love. It has been a part of societies for thousands of years. Plato and Shakespeare both speak of it and may have experienced it themselves. Not always does this love extend to a sexual encounter. Often it is just a case of the wisdom of an elder being passed to youth.
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I don't get all these labels...man boy love and stuff like this...if it's not necessarily sexual....and why is it women can befriend little girls half the time and nothing is ever thought of it? I think it's pure sexism. "Grown ups" and children should be free to interact and play without people automatically thinking it's sexual or even "man boy love". What has happened to our society? There was a time when grown ups could play with or hug a child they were close to without being looked at like something is wrong. I know we have to be careful but come on.....the innocence just keeps going POOF more and more in this society. Don't even get me started on 12 year olds who dress 30. Mind you I'll dress like a 12 year old and I'm 26 but even I wouldn't dress like most 30 year olds...know what i mean? This might even be part of the problem of pedophilia being on the rise...children don't even look like children half the time now. *sighs* I wish things were like when I was little again....it's gotten worse even from THEN!
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"It has been a part of societies for thousands of years. Plato and Shakespeare both speak of it and may have experienced it themselves."
I am not sure when you were born Wendybird, but I am certain neither of the men I spoke of were alive. But for thousands of years this has been a part of society. I think perhaps you were just not aware. I agree much innocence has been lost from when I was a lad. My parents could have probably said the same.
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"It has been a part of societies for thousands of years. Plato and Shakespeare both speak of it and may have experienced it themselves."
I am not sure when you were born Wendybird, but I am certain neither of the men I spoke of were alive. But for thousands of years this has been a part of society. I think perhaps you were just not aware. I agree much innocence has been lost from when I was a lad. My parents could have probably said the same.
No I agree that this stuff has been around for a long time...i just dont get it...plus....my point was....i don't get why this seperate thing has to get in the way of something completely innocent......honestly..in all truthfulness i still consider myself a child and so does my boyfriend....and we want to go outside and play with kids...no man boy love...no ...gosh i dunno if there is such a thing--woman girl love or anything....we just want to stay children. period. but it's very hard to do in a society where everyone is paranoid...that's what i don't get :( why can't we just be who we are and not have to worry about false accusations or weird looks...it just feels wrong.
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Because we live in an age of legalities. Many situations have come to light in the last part of the 20th century and continue on, which were not and are not healthy for children and cause them great damage. It is unfortunate this was done to them by adults they put trust in. The world has changed since 1904. You can no long walk around wearing rose coloured glasses. Is is healthy for us as adults to try and remain children ourselves? Peter Pan was given to us as a fantasy not a reality. Take care that the Wendy Bird does not find herself shot down again by a gang of lost boys.
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Because we live in an age of legalities. Many situations have come to light in the last part of the 20th century and continue on, which were not and are not healthy for children and cause them great damage. It is unfortunate this was done to them by adults they put trust in. The world has changed since 1904. You can no long walk around wearing rose coloured glasses. Is is healthy for us as adults to try and remain children ourselves? Peter Pan was given to us as a fantasy not a reality. Take care that the Wendy Bird does not find herself shot down again by a gang of lost boys.
I see nothing wrong with being child-like as long as you don't neglect your responsibilities no. I see nothing wrong with a person who comes home from work and plays old school nintendo or even with my little ponies or barbies. Nothing wrong with that. Who sets this standard? A society who is depressed and run down and living life in the same constant pattern of sleep breakfast work supper cleaning up after supper tv or whatever for all of a few hours then bed and the cycle starts all over again? Sorry I see nothing wrong with cutting against the grain. It's not being completely escapist it's about nurturing the inner child and there is nothing wrong with that. Most people when they talk of the inner child think you must do it in other ways than playing with kids or toys etc..I think it's perfectly fine and I stand by it. Lost boys feel welcome to shoot me down because I have no interest in adulthood by today's definition. Scared since I was a small girl about growing up. Thought for a while in my teens it might be okay but then it began to hit me more and more over time I'd lost myself. I wasn't me anymore. And now I am and I am proud of that. "Seems I'm lost in my reflection, find a star for my direction for the little girl inside who won't just hide. Don't let me see mistakes and lies let me keep my faith in innocent eyes"--Song by Delta Goodrem The little girl that I am won't hide. Period. I'm not going to let a messed up society dictate to me what is normal or not. I know my responsibilities. I have my own apartment I go to the grocery store etc But I want to be able to play with other kids as well as with toys that I have...either from when I was still little or ones I buy now. I wear Disney fairy and princess bookbags too which I suppose you think is weird as well but ....too bad...I think it's fine so long as I'm not hurting someone else and not neglecting anything.
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I thought i'd add for the record: I was like this LONG before i ever knew much about Peter Pan...i knew the disney version when i was really small but it's not what popped into my head ironically all these years. I've always known I didn't want to grow up ...in fact a lot like Wendy in the novel...i related to that very much when I read it....I knew younger than 5 years old somehow that I didn't want to grow up....as my teen years got closer i got even more scared. Now I realize I don't need to be scared. I can just be me...which is...a big kid. So i thought I'd point this out in case you thought I was a Pan fanatic who has gone too far. This story is very much a part of my being at it's core which is why I love it so so much...that among the umpteen other reasons it's a great story.
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"Lost boys feel welcome to shoot me down because I have no interest in adulthood by today's definition."
wendybird. Do you really believe what you wrote? You flood this forum with your opinions, most of which are very immature for lack of a better word. If you chose not to join adulthood, perhaps you should seek professional help and not this forum.
Attack me if you must. I have read your other attacks. Before you do please stand back and look in the mirror and read through some of the things you have posted here.
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"Lost boys feel welcome to shoot me down because I have no interest in adulthood by today's definition."
wendybird. Do you really believe what you wrote? You flood this forum with your opinions, most of which are very immature for lack of a better word. If you chose not to join adulthood, perhaps you should seek professional help and not this forum.
Attack me if you must. I have read your other attacks. Before you do please stand back and look in the mirror and read through some of the things you have posted here.
ummmmm and what did I post here? I've given opinions of mine about society in general I have not attacked anyone..unless of course you feel attacked but I felt I should be allowed to share my opinion that growing up is not a necessity. It makes me angry that other people are forcing people into molds set by society that are not needed. There is nothing wrong with playing with kids or toys if you are a responsible person in every other way. I'd like to know who I attacked..no one has ever come down on me for it. The only other thread I can think of is the Michael Jackson thread and I am with the umpteen other people on there including Andrew on the Michael Jackson opinions..so that wasn't just me. So don't go coming on here and telling me that I am immature and attacking people. If anything you have come here and completely disregarded someone's personal lifestyle choice. One that is not harmful and I know many people who are even TEACHERS and still do things that I do. There is nothing wrong with being a child at heart. And I do think it's just as prejudiced to come down on someone for a lifestyle choice like this as it is for someone to put down someone else for any other way they'd like to live. Do you not understand that Barrie himself was a big kid? Or are you one of the many psychologists out there who find him interesting because you think he was made crazy by a sad childhood? I prefer to think he was a sweet man who might have not had the happiest of childhoods but I don't think that meant something was wrong with him as an adult for doing the things he did. For the record I'm not attacking you I'm asking you. Because if anything I've felt attacked. I didn't come to this forum for help I came to discuss a man I relate to and a story I relate to. If I have done something wrong I'll wait and see if Andrew tells me so. But I don't see it. Let other people speak for themselves because no one has told me that they felt that way and I certainly have never made it personal except for someone judging Michael Jackson on lack of evidence. Though that even was not meant personally. Just playing devils advocate on the facts vs the gossip. As Andrew posted in this thread: http://www.jmbarrie.co.uk/msgbrd/index.php?topic=180.msg602#msg602
Immaturity and not growing up are completely different things. I'm not growing up. I have a father (ironically who's name is George) who is more immature than I am and he's 20 years older. I don't think I've handled most things on this forum badly at all. I'm free to come here and talk about something that was a major part of James Barrie...child-likeness. If I relate to that I should be free to give my opinions just as well as you are. If you post an opinion I am free to give my opinion of it. It's not an attack on you...it's on the labels and automatic view society takes of people who hang around children. There are people out there who are simply big kids and want to be around kids...that's a fact. Not to be blunt or anything but...you have to learn to deal with that just like i know there ARE pedophiles out there. But what I'd like to see from society is to acknowledge that the harmless big kids are out there as well. And not everyone who is like that is "crazy" or "immature" for being child-like.
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Childish is the word I was trying not to use. You posts are generally childish and there is a great difference between child like and childish. There is nothing wrong with being a child at heart, unless that itself becomes an obsession.
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I swore i was not going to post again, but I must just this once more.
BRAVO, MLD
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I don't mean to be rude, but I read wendybird on a post and immediately know the post will be entirely about her or her opinions. Like a self centred spoiled child who assumes they know everything.
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Yup okay then...so because I speak on topics from what I know...like peoples paranoia on children hanging around adults...I'm spoiled and selfish? So sorry that I've had experiences I can bring to the discussion all things considered. I think I will let someone else handle this from this point on. This is below me. I'm not a stuck up person but that is one thing I do know. I came to these discussions as someone who understands someone like J.M. Barrie and the frustrations involved in people thinking something that is not the case. I don't understand why people can't be left alone for being child-like. It's a horrible thing to do to people out there and all I know is I've had experiences that I know I can share. If that is not appreciated by people then I'll just leave myself. But personally...and I'm not making any accusations here....but I do wonder why it is that MLD conveniently shows up out of the blue a few days ago and conveniently Taylor is a big fan of the real MLD...yes very interesting indeed. I'm going to let a moderator handle this...this is not my responsibility. I felt I had a point of view that might help others understand people like Barrie and Michael Jackson and the like a little better. Apparently, at least for a couple, having their pre-conceived notions challenged is too much. Like I said, i speak from experience. That is why I bring it up. This is up to the moderator (s) from now on.
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Are you accusing me of pretending to be someone else? My you are childish. Experience? You have told us that you are an adult who does not what to be a part of the adult world in the year 2009. That says it all. Please just voice you opinions on the subject at hand and not on us poersonally. And plese keep them short.
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Please just voice you opinions on the subject at hand and not on us poersonally.
Use no personal attacks? So she should follow your example, right? Since you're the mature adult in the group? Oh... wait...
I don't mean to be rude, but I read wendybird on a post and immediately know the post will be entirely about her or her opinions. Like a self centred spoiled child who assumes they know everything.
I guess not.
--> Wendy, don't feed the trolls.
MLD, if you're going to go around dissing people for having JMBesque beliefs on a JMB forum, why are you even here?
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This forum is big enough for all opinions, sexism and racism apart, so feel free to fly on, Wendybird - but don't get upset if MLD tries to bring you down to earth with a few arrows...
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This forum is big enough for all opinions, sexism and racism apart, so feel free to fly on, Wendybird - but don't get upset if MLD tries to bring you down to earth with a few arrows...
Yeah i'll just have to do a couple cool maneuvers to avoid those haha Thanks Andrew!
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Wendybird. When you speak of PeterPan and Neverland are you refering to the play or films? The Peter Pan of the novel is very different from the play. He is not actualy the hero.
and Andrew I am not trying to shot anyone down.
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The Peter Pan of the novel is very different from the play. He is not actualy the hero.
That's different from the play? How? ???
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Wendy is the main character in both. MLD I wasn 't suggesting you were trying to shoot anyone, merely bringing them down to earth.
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Wendy? I am taking about the character of Peter Pan. He is very diferent in the novel. Don't ask how just read it if you have not. He is not the innocent hero of adventure as in the play. He is very dark.
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Wendy? I am taking about the character of Peter Pan. He is very diferent in the novel. Don't ask how just read it if you have not. He is not the innocent hero of adventure as in the play. He is very dark.
Again I ask, how is that different from the play? I seem to recall him being similarly dark in that (I have a copy of the script and have read it more than once).
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"The Peter Pan of the novel is very different from the play. He is not actualy the hero." Meaning that he is not the hero in the play? or in the novel? My point being that Wendy is the main character - aka hero/ine - in both.
Peter is clearly more complex in the novel since Barrie is able to tell us what's going on in his mind; moreover by 1911 (when Barrie wrote the novel) Peter had taken on some of the characteristics of Michael Ll Davies (e.g. bad dreams), but other than that, I wouldn't say that he was very different from the boy in the play.
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I don't read Wendy as the MAIN character in either. Peter however as written in the novel is obviously more conceited to the point of being mean and kills without feeling. He is the villian and not the hero. An evil youth who steals children from their beds. Do we see this in the play? No, we do not.
I don't know why Andrew would say they are not different. Many, many reviews point out the same thing. I think Andrew likes to argue with everything I bring up now.
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Will you please just relax already? Come on now. As for how I view Peter Pan..i don't put him in any kind of a box. I look at him as a mixture of all the different versions I've seen. The fact that me and my boyfriend use Peter and Wendy as nicknames goes to the fact we're both child-like and we're more like the relationship in the 2003 movie with some of the novel intertwined. I love all things Pan....yes unfortunately even aspects of the movie Hook i liked lol Though I totally dislike the idea of Peter Pan growing up etc and the movie has major problems with it (in my opinion which i don't think EVERYONE has to agree with as you seem to think). But please...just simmer down a bit okay? Things are getting very worked up on here over nothing.
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Will you please just relax already? Come on now. As for how I view Peter Pan..i don't put him in any kind of a box. I look at him as a mixture of all the different versions I've seen. The fact that me and my boyfriend use Peter and Wendy as nicknames goes to the fact we're both child-like and we're more like the relationship in the 2003 movie with some of the novel intertwined. I love all things Pan....yes unfortunately even aspects of the movie Hook i liked lol Though I totally dislike the idea of Peter Pan growing up etc and the movie has major problems with it (in my opinion which i don't think EVERYONE has to agree with as you seem to think). But please...just simmer down a bit okay? Things are getting very worked up on here over nothing.
THANK you for being the voice of reason--this and the other thread have gotten WAY off topic, and unnecessarily so.
I still think Peter was similarly devilish in the play (and I've read the script more than once), and it would help to give specific examples of such differences--I mean, Peter did kill in the play and he did kidnap Wendy and her brothers in the play (at least, no differently than in the book), and he was cocky in both. He was really neither the hero nor the villain in either.
But to each his own, I suppose.
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Will you please just relax already? Come on now. As for how I view Peter Pan..i don't put him in any kind of a box. I look at him as a mixture of all the different versions I've seen. The fact that me and my boyfriend use Peter and Wendy as nicknames goes to the fact we're both child-like and we're more like the relationship in the 2003 movie with some of the novel intertwined. I love all things Pan....yes unfortunately even aspects of the movie Hook i liked lol Though I totally dislike the idea of Peter Pan growing up etc and the movie has major problems with it (in my opinion which i don't think EVERYONE has to agree with as you seem to think). But please...just simmer down a bit okay? Things are getting very worked up on here over nothing.
THANK you for being the voice of reason--this and the other thread have gotten WAY off topic, and unnecessarily so.
I still think Peter was similarly devilish in the play (and I've read the script more than once), but to each his own, I suppose.
I don't think Peter was ever really EVIL which I feel is what is being implied by the poster....I think he is devilish but still innocent...he's a boy without a mother...he has many sides to his personality and many deep rooted issues that what makes him so great! He's complex! He's not flat he's a well rounded character. I LOVE this character..I don't think just because he's not the "hero" makes him the villain either...again...just my thought. But i LOVE him!
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I don't think Peter was ever really EVIL which I feel is what is being implied by the poster....I think he is devilish but still innocent...he's a boy without a mother...he has many sides to his personality and many deep rooted issues that what makes him so great! He's complex! He's not flat he's a well rounded character. I LOVE this character..I don't think just because he's not the "hero" makes him the villain either...again...just my thought. But i LOVE him!
Exactly--hence "gay and innocent and heartless." He's AMORAL, not IMMORAL. He does things without thinking of the consequences because he can't even remember them--hence for him there ARE no consequences and he can't learn from his mistakes. And he can't tell the difference between real and pretend either, so "killing" is a game to him, not unlike killing baddies in a video game.
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I don't think Peter was ever really EVIL which I feel is what is being implied by the poster....I think he is devilish but still innocent...he's a boy without a mother...he has many sides to his personality and many deep rooted issues that what makes him so great! He's complex! He's not flat he's a well rounded character. I LOVE this character..I don't think just because he's not the "hero" makes him the villain either...again...just my thought. But i LOVE him!
Exactly--hence "gay and innocent and heartless." He's AMORAL, not IMMORAL. He does things without thinking of the consequences because he can't even remember them--hence for him there ARE no consequences and he can't learn from his mistakes. And he can't tell the difference between real and pretend either, so "killing" is a game to him, not unlike killing baddies in a video game.
Exactly!