Hook & Jill

[AlexanderDavid]

I'm thinking about it... though I don't know if I could possibly stomach a sex scene between Hook and Wendy. Just the thought is pretty traumatizing.

And I think what you're describing is relativism. That Hook & Peter are on opposing sides of the social equivalent of a religious crusade.

Yeah, that's something that's going to divide readers--you just have to read it and decide whether you think it's justified or not.  I will say one thing--Wendy is certainly "of age" before anything like that happens....

And that's not quite what I meant at all....  I think of it as though Peter and Hook are two "halves" of the same individual--but they got severed between childhood and adulthood.  Peter is his childhood, never able to grow up and die of old age (thus never able to make use of his unlimited potential by progression), and Hook is his adulthood, never having been a child and having such potential at all (thus locked into his unwanted role as a pirate captain, unable to be anything but, and having nothing but the ticking crocodile to look ahead to).

And Wendybird, not to worry--you make PERFECT sense to me.    I was the same way--even when I was very little I felt "stirrings" but had no idea what they were or what to do about them.

[TheWendybird]

For the record..and I feel the need to state this now after how MLD acted toward me...I am totally not arguing against other peoples views...just stating my own and having healthy debate lol

Also I forgot to add some have thought Barrie was simply impotent and it wasn't anything to do with not feeling like he could emotionally have had it with someone. Not sure if there is any truth to the impotence thing I've heard or not though. Or maybe it's like what I said I have no idea lol

[AlexanderDavid]

For the record..and I feel the need to state this now after how MLD acted toward me...I am totally not arguing against other peoples views...just stating my own and having healthy debate lol

Also I forgot to add some have thought Barrie was simply impotent and it wasn't anything to do with not feeling like he could emotionally have had it with someone. Not sure if there is any truth to the impotence thing I've heard or not though. Or maybe it's like what I said I have no idea lol

I don't know if he was or not--I think the main evidence cited is that he tried to have children but never conceived.

[TheWendybird]

I'm thinking about it... though I don't know if I could possibly stomach a sex scene between Hook and Wendy. Just the thought is pretty traumatizing.

And I think what you're describing is relativism. That Hook & Peter are on opposing sides of the social equivalent of a religious crusade.

Yeah, that's something that's going to divide readers--you just have to read it and decide whether you think it's justified or not.  I will say one thing--Wendy is certainly "of age" before anything like that happens....

And that's not quite what I meant at all....  I think of it as though Peter and Hook are two "halves" of the same individual--but they got severed between childhood and adulthood.  Peter is his childhood, never able to grow up and die of old age (thus never able to make use of his unlimited potential by progression), and Hook is his adulthood, never having been a child and having such potential at all (thus locked into his unwanted role as a pirate captain, unable to be anything but, and having nothing but the ticking crocodile to look ahead to).

And Wendybird, not to worry--you make PERFECT sense to me.    I was the same way--even when I was very little I felt "stirrings" but had no idea what they were or what to do about them.

That is an interesting take on it i will say I don't see it that way but I can see how someone could and it's quite interesting thanks for sharing that!

[TheWendybird]

For the record..and I feel the need to state this now after how MLD acted toward me...I am totally not arguing against other peoples views...just stating my own and having healthy debate lol

Also I forgot to add some have thought Barrie was simply impotent and it wasn't anything to do with not feeling like he could emotionally have had it with someone. Not sure if there is any truth to the impotence thing I've heard or not though. Or maybe it's like what I said I have no idea lol

I don't know if he was or not--I think the main evidence cited is that he tried to have children but never conceived.

Awww..so he did apparently try and they just never bore any? That's depressing..wow

[AlexanderDavid]

That is an interesting take on it i will say I don't see it that way but I can see how someone could and it's quite interesting thanks for sharing that!

You're welcome!  ^_^  Thanks for the compliment!

Awww..so he did apparently try and they just never bore any? That's depressing..wow

Yeah, it particularly cut him when she threatened to say they never consummated the marriage--in order to get an annulment when he wouldn't let her have a divorce....

But yeah, I imagine that's why he wrote The Little White Bird--"Timothy" never came to him....

[TheWendybird]

That is an interesting take on it i will say I don't see it that way but I can see how someone could and it's quite interesting thanks for sharing that!

You're welcome!  ^_^  Thanks for the compliment!

Awww..so he did apparently try and they just never bore any? That's depressing..wow

Yeah, it particularly cut him when she threatened to say they never consummated the marriage--in order to get an annulment when he wouldn't let her have a divorce....

But yeah, I imagine that's why he wrote The Little White Bird--"Timothy" never came to him....

Gosh..makes you wonder more so why so many people thought it odd he wanted to be around children...not only was he a child himself but he wanted a child too...I would imagine if I wanted to have kids but couldn't I'd probably become close with friends and relatives who had kids I could spoil and play with!

[AlexanderDavid]

Gosh..makes you wonder more so why so many people thought it odd he wanted to be around children...not only was he a child himself but he wanted a child too...I would imagine if I wanted to have kids but couldn't I'd probably become close with friends and relatives who had kids I could spoil and play with!

I also think, in Barrie's case, the boys (at least Michael and possibly George) were his "significant others" so to speak--not in a romantic or a sexual way, but effective "soul mates."  In The Little White Bird, I find it interesting that Captain W is jealous and resentful of David's MOTHER, not his father.  Plus he acts almost like part of a love triangle.  And yet Mary A knows that he really does love her, even if he doesn't--but not in a romantic or sexual way.

[TheWendybird]

Gosh..makes you wonder more so why so many people thought it odd he wanted to be around children...not only was he a child himself but he wanted a child too...I would imagine if I wanted to have kids but couldn't I'd probably become close with friends and relatives who had kids I could spoil and play with!

I also think, in Barrie's case, the boys (at least Michael and possibly George) were his "significant others" so to speak--not in a romantic or a sexual way, but effective "soul mates."  In The Little White Bird, I find it interesting that Captain W is jealous and resentful of David's MOTHER, not his father.  Plus he acts almost like part of a love triangle.  And yet Mary A knows that he really does love her, even if he doesn't--but not in a romantic or sexual way.

Oh yes soul mates do not have to be romantic. I am convinced before my 12 year old cousin started mimicking her parents too much that we were soul mates too. Not that we're not now..just she has changed a lot but from the time she was a baby she was drawn to me...no more than a year old she'd come up to me all the time wanting hugs and kisses and putting her arms around my neck. She was much more attached to me than the rest of the non immediate family (non-immediate meaning not her brother or parents). So I can definately see where you are coming from on that. I honestly wonder if i knew my cousin in a prior life (if you believe in that )..but that's the kinda feeling it has regardless. Same thing with my boyfriend. There are very few people that I can say that about but it's wonderful when you find them. Even if me and my cousin were to grow apart I know it will always have been special.

Mary A knows that he loves her just not romantically is that what u mean? So in the story that character is asexual?

[AlexanderDavid]

Oh yes soul mates do not have to be romantic. I am convinced before my 12 year old cousin started mimicking her parents too much that we were soul mates too. Not that we're not now..just she has changed a lot but from the time she was a baby she was drawn to me...no more than a year old she'd come up to me all the time wanting hugs and kisses and putting her arms around my neck. She was much more attached to me than the rest of the non immediate family (non-immediate meaning not her brother or parents). So I can definately see where you are coming from on that. I honestly wonder if i knew my cousin in a prior life (if you believe in that )..but that's the kinda feeling it has regardless. Same thing with my boyfriend. There are very few people that I can say that about but it's wonderful when you find them. Even if me and my cousin were to grow apart I know it will always have been special.

Mary A knows that he loves her just not romantically is that what u mean? So in the story that character is asexual?

I believe in that to an extent, but I don't believe it's an exact "previous life-current life-next life" thing, but that we're more like Frankenstein hybrids.  On that note (sorry to go off-topic), in the movie Mary Shelley's Frankenstein, the creature plays a flute in front of his creator and asks something to the equivalent of "which part of me knew how to do that?"

I don't know if the character is asexual in the book, but Captain W is certainly a fictionalization of Barrie himself.  And I don't know if Mary knows he doesn't love her in a romantic sense or not (been awhile since I read it) but she knows he loves her rather than hating her as he pretends to.

[TheWendybird]

Oh yes soul mates do not have to be romantic. I am convinced before my 12 year old cousin started mimicking her parents too much that we were soul mates too. Not that we're not now..just she has changed a lot but from the time she was a baby she was drawn to me...no more than a year old she'd come up to me all the time wanting hugs and kisses and putting her arms around my neck. She was much more attached to me than the rest of the non immediate family (non-immediate meaning not her brother or parents). So I can definately see where you are coming from on that. I honestly wonder if i knew my cousin in a prior life (if you believe in that )..but that's the kinda feeling it has regardless. Same thing with my boyfriend. There are very few people that I can say that about but it's wonderful when you find them. Even if me and my cousin were to grow apart I know it will always have been special.

Mary A knows that he loves her just not romantically is that what u mean? So in the story that character is asexual?

I believe in that to an extent, but I don't believe it's an exact "previous life-current life-next life" thing, but that we're more like Frankenstein hybrids.  On that note (sorry to go off-topic), in the movie Mary Shelley's Frankenstein, the creature plays a flute in front of his creator and asks something to the equivalent of "which part of me knew how to do that?"

I don't know if the character is asexual in the book, but Captain W is certainly a fictionalization of Barrie himself.  And I don't know if Mary knows he doesn't love her in a romantic sense or not (been awhile since I read it) but she knows he loves her rather than hating her as he pretends to.

Ah okies *nods* gotcha.

[TheWendybird]

I just want to say I have read this now and I'm a little taken aback by it. I think it's well written yes....I like some of the stuff between Wendy and Peter and the Lost Boys but toward the middle it gets very twisted and I do NOT like how a scene between a violent Peter and Wendy was depicted. Very shocking. I didn't care for this book. It has it's good moments but...wow....not for me. That being said I was wondering about peoples opinons of romance between Peter and Wendy and I did like the part where she kissed him. I'm however kind of shocked people are more accepting of this idea the way this book was written than they are of the innocent sweetheart love I've personally come to see in Peter and Wendy...I really can't understand that but to each their own.

[AlexanderDavid]

I just want to say I have read this now and I'm a little taken aback by it. I think it's well written yes....I like some of the stuff between Wendy and Peter and the Lost Boys but toward the middle it gets very twisted and I do NOT like how a scene between a violent Peter and Wendy was depicted. Very shocking. I didn't care for this book. It has it's good moments but...wow....not for me. That being said I was wondering about peoples opinons of romance between Peter and Wendy and I did like the part where she kissed him. I'm however kind of shocked people are more accepting of this idea the way this book was written than they are of the innocent sweetheart love I've personally come to see in Peter and Wendy...I really can't understand that but to each their own.

I'm sorry you didn't like the book, but I'm not all that surprised.  Peter Pan is a specific kind of story, so it's only to be expected that such an adult reinterpretation isn't going to be for everyone.  (I'm glad you did at least read it once first, though!  ^_^)  And yes, I knew you weren't going to like that scene (I know exactly which one you're talking about--I didn't like it either)....

One thing I will say in the book's defense, though--I have it on good authority that the author wrote it as a metaphor for her own life, which is already a good reason for writing the story since Barrie's original was a metaphor for his.  On top of which, she did respect Barrie's original more than many writers have done, even those who purport to be writing within Barrie's "universe".

I'm a little curious, though, about the last thing you said about people being more accepting....  Could you explain that a bit, and maybe give me an example of what you mean?  I'm curious.

[TheWendybird]

Well I know a lot of people out there are totally for and can see the Peter and Wendy "relationshippy" stuff but some people are sooooo into the mother thing they can't see how things like that can double over (not addressing you btw regarding my other post). But I find there seems to be two camps..the "no way peter and wendy would ever kiss" kind of crowd (even though they kiss in the nursery in the book)...who think he felt nothing...and the people who are all for things like the '03 movie and maybe even more. I fall into the '03 movie with a lot more confusion and angst..not that they didn't show it but I think it needed to be addressed more so with the novel and with the confusions about the feelings and what a mother is opposed to other things Peter may have felt as well. So the movie does fall short with that I admit for sure. I've always felt..and I think this author (of Hook & Jill) actually captured it a bit in a few parts and THAT did pleasantly suprise me...the fact there was something Peter felt for her more than a mother. I believe it says when Wendy kissed him there WAS a passion there and I guess i think people need to be more open to the idea that yes he probably could feel that (you can feel it at any age..as i said in another post...we're born that way it really isn't something magical that happens at 13..it's just stronger then) but if he had any knowledge about romantic love he probably feared it meant one automatically grows up and that falling in love equals mothers and fathers and children..which is not necessarily the case. If Peter knew he could remain a boy..have his Wendy and be in love and still have fun...I kinda wonder if he would have been nearly as scared..it seems to be the lack of understanding their own emotions and feelings that seems to drive them apart in the end.

For instance in the '03 movie when after the faerie dance wendy asks Peter about his real feelings and what about love...he gets defensive. I've always always wondered....if this was the beginning of the end for Wendy. What if she had been told his true feelings? (Which you can't deny in that version they were there) I kind of think she may not have grown up at all...she wouldn't have given it so much thought...it possibly would have been like it was in Hook & Jill where she would have left her family behind for him you know?

I know there is the camp that says Peter should have grown up for Wendy...but i always wonder why no one says the opposite....perhaps it's because maybe love between children feels impossible or scary to most I don't know...it doesn't happen often but if we were all honest with ourselves...real true love probably doesn't even happen that often in our normal adult world. I just kind of think they could have found paradise together if they had known everything. It's just my thought.

I can appreciate someone basing stuff off their life. I am writing something myself...while also trying to stay in the spirit but a totally different story....it won't change the ending of the original story though. It's more of a continuation based on my experiences using those characters. Believe me there were parts I really enjoyed it just kinda left a sour taste somewhere past the mid point

[AlexanderDavid]

Ah, I see.

Well, Barrie said in the narration of the book (and the book's events bear this out) that Wendy WANTED to grow up.  What made playing "mother" fun for her was knowing that someday she would BE a mother and do these things for real.  Contrast that with Peter, who only had any interest in playing "father" because it was a new game he hadn't tried before, and he needed constant reassurance that it was only pretend, and not real.

At any rate, I think that kind of ending would have left the Darlings in the lurch.  That wouldn't be nice.

You are?  Neat!    I won't ask further questions, though--I don't know how much you want to tell, but even if you're fine with telling, this thread isn't the place for it.